NOV 10, 2018

Ron LeMaster Interview 

Richard Berger and Tom Gellie in Solden

Illustration from Ron LeMaster's Utimate Skiing, a must read for any ski enthusiasts

Tom:

Ron, it's really nice to meet you. So my first question is how did you get into  skiing? How did you get into analyzing the biomechanics of skiing? Where did the whole  journey start for you?

 

Ron:

Well, I grew up skiing. I grew up in Colorado and skied since I was a little kid. When I was a teenager, I read everything I could find about skiing. I just wanted to learn more about how it works and how you're supposed to do it. So then I went to college, studied engineering, I like to analyze things and understand how they work.  Then I got involved in ski instructing and then coaching full time for a number of years and just always looked at skiing from that technical side of things. So I figured if I could understand it, then maybe I could do a better job of doing it, myself, coaching it to other people.

 

Tom:

So would  you have considered yourself a naturally talented skier?

 

Ron:

Boy, that's really hard to answer. You know, I grew up skiing better than some people and  skiing worse than others. You know, it depends on who you compare yourself to. I honestly think that, my ability to ski is, maybe a combination of having some sort of physical predisposition being lucky to have feet that work well in ski boots. I mean, I know for so many guys their feet safe just not made for ski boots. It’s too uncomfortable. But I think that really having analyzed skiing a lot and understanding it and having an opportunity to watch just great skiers a lot has had a lot to do with me being able to ski, you know, reasonably well. I, I think I'm still a reasonably good skier talented, that's hard to say. I don't consider myself a talented athlete in general.

 

Tom:

Sure. I guess from my perspective I know that getting into the details and understanding skiing more, all the technical aspects has helped me to ski better. However there's always that skier on the mountain that is naturally talented and has great touch on the snow. It’s not something they can easily describe, its like they are born with it. . So if you're not that kind of skier, then that kind of drives you into seeking more information about how these people that do do that.

 

Ron:

Well, I really do think that having a an understanding of skiing has helped me ski better and help me continue to ski and and actually continued to ski better as the equipment gets better. My physiological abilities aren't getting any better, if anything they've declined as I've gotten older, but yeah, I think understanding has something to do with it.

 

Tom:

What would you say is the highlight of your coaching? Because I read you're involved with helping the us ski team. 

 

Ron:

Yeah, not so much in the last few last few years I have less involvement with them than I used to. I have a traveled with the U S team in Europe for several years. I dont know if I’d say it was the pinnacle of my life. It was pretty good and I was always learning.

 

Tom:

So in what capacity were you involved?

 

Ron:

Technical advisor, I guess that's what I was, that's what the people on the U S team called me. I'd basically talk to talk to the coaches more than the athletes. Although in the case of one of the Europeans I worked with, you know, I would work directly with the athlete, but a lot of it was talking with the coaches about who's doing what, who's doing better than others and why, and you know, how  might we be able to communicate what's going on to a particular skier? I think my contribution isn't analysis. It's objective. Objective description of what's going on, what could go on.  And then it's a special part of a great coach to be able to communicate that to an athlete. Yeah, my experience is that there's some people, a minority of people who respond to the objective description of things. What people more often respond well to is the right subjective description of what that person might feel when they do the right thing.

 

Tom:

Can you think then of one example, say working with one of these world cup athletes when that was the case, so perhaps you've picked up something that could be worked on in their technique and you explained to the coach, and then the coach translated that into a simple feeling or analogy?. Can you think of a particular example where that rang true, where it wasn't the objective discussion, but it was translated. I know this is putting you on the spot.

 

Ron:

Yeah. Let's see. Well, Oh, an example would be talking about how someone's saying that someone's centre of mass isn't moving across their feet, going into the turn. One of the things that happens in the transition from one turn to the next is that somehow you get your centre of mass to go on a more or less straight line across your feet while your feet continue to turn underneath you. That's how. So you'll say you've got to relax these muscles, detach your feet from your upper body. Something like that is sort of an objective description. But then a coach would say, "I want you to move your hips across your feet". Now in objective fact, the skier can't physically move themselves across their feet. All they can do is do things such that  their body's momentum carries across their feet.

If you don't have something to push against, you know, there's no way you can project yourself. 

 

Tom:

That's really interesting. So that's exactly, I guess what I'm getting to. A coach could understand that they need to get the hips across their feet and you can see that they are not doing that, but from your perspective, understanding biomechanics, you need something to push or pull against in order for the centre of mass to change it’s position. Okay. Well, it's not possible to actually tell the person to do that cue. You need to think of other ways to make that movement happen. 

 

Ron:

Right. You know, in some terms that might mean you say to the skier, you know, I want you to go soft at the end of the turn. Relaxing the muscles in your mid body, which will let your upper body going more or less straight line or you know, I want you to dive into the turn.

 

Tom:

So you would be involved with video analysis. Being on the hill with the athletes in a training session and finding areas where they could improve upon and then sitting down and working out these solutions

 

Ron:

Right. Or a coach would say “what I’d really like to do is at this race, we want to look at transitions. We wanna look at transitions on steep hills.”  We'd look at transitions and they'd go back and look at the video and talk about it, see what we see and see who's faster and who's slower. I can analyze what's going on. And then we can talk about it from that point of view.

 

 

Marcel Hirscher Ron Le Master

Tom:

So straight on from that, who do you think at the moment on the world cup has a really good transition on the steeps?

 

Ron:

Oh, well I don't think there's anyone  better than Marcel Hirscher. On the men's side, I think there are other people who are in his league. One thing  I think you have to keep in mind is his body type, you know, he's short, he's, he's got short legs and, and because of that, he skis differently than a lankier skier, like a Christopherson or like Stephan Luitz. If he was very tall and lanky, he would move differently. But I would say as far as transitions go sure has got about as good a control over what's going on as anybody especially in GS you know, where other people will feather their ski into the turn until they see the spot when they know they really want to knife it. Hirscher seems to be very positive about where he wants to make the turn well before the middle of the transition. He can let himself come off the ground and still land at just the right spot on an edge and make it work.

 

Tom:

That's really interesting. You point out the body shape types. Because I guess that comes back to this engineering background, it's about levers and fulcrums and pivot points and that sort of stuff. So why is it that his frame, his skeletal frame sort of gives him a bit of an advantage?

 

Ron:

Well, I don't know if I'd say it gives them an advantage. What I would say though, is that some of the elements of his skiing, some of his style works for a person who's built like him. He doesn't bend forward as much at the waist as some other skiers. A taller lankier guy like Henrik, these guys don't have short legs and they, they have to bend forward more at the waist to keep the centre mass from getting too far back when they flex deeply. 

 

Tom:

Yeah, he's able to flex really deeply and still stay on top of his base of support.

 

Ron:

Yeah. I would suspect that he's probably got a fair amount of forward lean in his boots too. I don't know, Id’ be surprised if he doesn’t. You look at a guy like Luitz you know, and these guys, they, they look like crouching forward from the waist when they flex deeply, because I think it has to do with the leg length and how long that is in relation to your torso.

 

Tom:

I guess it brings back your point from earlier about yourself, you got a couple of things on your side. Feet that fit ski boots. Hirscher has a body that allows deep flexion. All those things really matter. And sometimes as coaches or instructors, you could perhaps forget that and wonder why the skier is always back at the transition and why are they so bent over. Its these factors we just discussed  why that person is struggling and made them to take a different kind of approach.

 

Ron:

I actually have a long femur. But I was fortunate in the early seventies to spend time with George Joubert in France. And he understood that the forward lean at your boots has to be set up to work with your body. The recent boots have forward lean so that you can flex up and down a long way and keep your centre mass over your feet. And, and he understood that. There's a very simple test for determining how much forward lean needed in a boot (See Rons book Ultimate skiing for more on this). The thing is that there are a lot of coaches out there who don't understand that. For instance, there's a lot of coaches who don't really understand the lateral, canting all that well either. And so young athletes who might be talented enough to do well, but they need some sort of adjustment to their boots to get around something like actually being a little knock kneed or bow legged or whatever. Never get past a certain point because the equipment hasn't been set up for them.

 

Tom:

Yeah, absolutely. So are there some things then you do with every single pair of boots you buy? 

 

Ron:

Oh, sure. I measure myself for canting you know, just using a plumb bob really to get started Then skiing them until I can feel like it's right. Yeah. The other thing that I always set up is the forward lean, so that I have a large long  range of vertical motion and can still use the front of my ski in a low position if I need to.

 

 

Ron:

Oh, the other thing I do I lower my heel in the boot. So that I feel like the boot works right with me. People talk about ramp angle a lot, and I think it's important, but I'm not sure I've ever heard a good explanation of why or from anybody. I know what works for me is heels low in the boot. And I feel that when I bend my ankle, flex my ankle and I push against the front of the boot that I'm hitting the top of the boot and if my heel's are too high, I feel like when I move into the front of the boot, I don't feel the top of the boot, the place where all the pressure is, is down under that third buckle. I have a theory it's not validated by anybody really who knows design, but I have the feeling that when you flex a boot it kind of flexes around \ an axis somewhere. And you want that you want the axis that your ankle flexes around to be pretty well lined up with the boot access, right? I want very even pressure against the whole front of the boot top to bottom when I push into it. That's, that's how I set up my heels with them lower.

 

Tom:

It's interesting. This last Southern hemisphere, winter, when I was in New Zealand, I got to use Carv.  It's a product that has sensors under your feet hooked to an app on your phone. So I got to test trial some of that developing technology. It's really cool. And anyway, I did a couple of runs with Carv. And what happened was it told me i was actually using more of my heel for a lot of the turn than I expected. And i also found it hard to make the front of my foot light up the pressure sensors. Even though it felt to me like I was.  So next day I mucked around with gas pedaling, my boots. Lifting the toe up, which seems counterintuitive. So I kind of dropped the heel relative to the front of the foot recorded with this Carv technology again and low and behold suddenly I've got these red dots showing up pressure at the ball of my foot, and kinesthetically, I could feel a lot more ski tip pressure early in the turn and yeah, and true ball, the foot kind of pressure, which is really interesting to me. 

 

Ron:

So, yeah. Putting a gas pedal under your boots. Okay. As long as it doesn't reduce the forward, lean in your boots so much that you can no longer be imbalanced in a low position.

 

Tom:

Yeah. Well, that's the thing, I think  because of Fisher vacuum boots they had quite a good amount of forward lean. I still could do a full squat in my boots and, and not fall over. But it was really interesting to feel definitely a lot more engagement and sensitivity to tip pressure. It felt like I could really apply resistance to it. So when it dug in and the tip wanted to bend back to me, I was able to kind of drive against that with my forefoot and keep resisting it. So built pressure for longer before I released it.  I'd never felt that because no boots in the history of my ownership had ever been gas pedaled. So I never really felt that sensation before. But I didn't know I was after that sensation.

 

Ron:

Yeah. I've talked to a number of people who have gotten a positive effect out of doing that. 

Carv sensors showing balance

Tom:

So, Ron, what, what made you write your two books? Was there a lack of good material out there? Was it just a project you wanted to do and share information? Was it a series written articles and you thought, Oh, I could actually probably turn this into a book. What was it?

 

Ron:

You know kind of a combination of those things. I mentioned when I was a teenager, I read everything I could find and I never found anything that was all that satisfying until in the early seventies when I was introduced to George Joubert's stuff. And that really had a strong influence on me. That's one reason why I went over and spent time with him, and he had a very clear objective analytical way of looking at things. Nobody that I'd read in the United States anyway had done that. And I just felt like I had something to say that I thought might make sense to other people might be useful. And I'd always been strongly motivated by photos. It felt like that's the most important part of a book on skiing is show, compelling, visual examples, then try and describe them.

 

Tom:

Right.  I really gained a lot of knowledge and insight into some of the details of skiing from your books. It's really easy to read for those people that haven't gone out and bought it and had a look at it. It's a great book.

 

 

Ron:

Well, yeah, it's skiing for the most part turning your right. What turning is, is getting the snow to push on you in such a way that you change direction. That's kind of dry, but it's kind of a dry description. But I think that a key thing for people to understand is that you don't make yourself turn, it's snow that makes you turn and you put your ski against the snow in such a way that the snow pushes you where you want to go. And you can do it in a way that the snow is harsh and plays with your roughly. Or you can do it in such a way that the snow pushes you in a manner that just feels really good. 

 

Tom:

Yes I think sometimes the snow pushing on you part is forgotten.

 

Ron:

There's a person in the U S a woman named mover Blakeslee who was a significant ski instructor for a long time in the States. And she has said to me, a number of times that she thinks that the problem we have is as coaches, instructors, and skiers in general is very body centric. Everybody wants to know what they, what they're supposed to do with their body. And she really believes, and I agree with her that you should be thinking in terms of what is it that I want my ski to do? What is it that's really the, well, that's the first thing.

 

Tom:

Yeah, exactly. That's the starting point, isn't it? Because otherwise you'd just kind of looking like you're dancing around for show without any outcome.

 

Ron:

Yeah. I really wanted to to call my second book skiing from the snow up, not ultimate skiing. That was my publisher's idea. We just had a hard time agreeing on that title, but I think that skied from the snow up would have a better, better express my point of view and sort of overarching theme. Cause that's where it all starts. Yeah.

 

Tom:

I'm doing some my own research and study at the moment, reading a couple of biomechanics of sport and exercise books and one sentence that really sort of resonated with me reading in there was muscles can change the motion of a body's limbs but these will not produce any change in motion of the body's center of mass. The body is only able to change its motion if it can push or pull against some external object, which is the ski against the snow. In my physical therapy line of work I'm very much into understanding how the body works. And yeah, it's good. Now I'm going more into, okay. I understand all these movements, but now what, how can I best manipulate or understand how these movements can create these outcomes or these forces on snow and why are some people really good at manipulating it?

 

Ron:

Right. I agree.  There are things that people do that, well, let me, well, let me rephrase this. Most skiers have certain movements that they make that produce some positive effect, something that needs to happen, but also have, have liabilities. Think  of throwing your hip out to make your ski start turning, you know? Yes. Are there reasons why that will help your ski start turning, but it has some liabilities to it. You have to put your skis flat on the snow tends to give you some angular momentum that you don't want, you know, plays havoc with the latter part of your turn. I think you understand what I'm saying? What I tried to do when I look at a skiers, I say, what is it that this person is doing? That's getting in their way, why are they doing it? They're probably, doing it because aside from the things that are getting in their way, they're getting some kind of positive effect out of that. What would be a better thing that they could do to produce the same positive effect without the liabilities? 

 

Tom:

Yeah exactly. That's a  really great way of thinking about it. Because you the body is super smart. You know, if your brain is saying right, I need to turn that. I need to get to the left. You know, it's got quite a few different ways that it can make that happen. 

 

Ron:

Of course, if you're a beginner, all the people around you are probably doing the same thing.

 

Tom:

Yeah, exactly.

 

Ron:

It's sort of working for them too.

 

Tom:

Yep. 

 

Ron:

Yeah. I was going to say over the years I started skiing in the fifties, 1950s, you had to do a lot more to get your skis, to do something back then. There was more effort involved in manipulating your skis. You had to manipulate skis more and as skis have gotten better and better and better. And especially since the late nineties skiing has become much more a matter of putting your ski in, in an attitude relative to your motion and the snow, it's going to do the right thing. And then you set up your body so that you can balance against the ski in a subtle way and be able to move and adapt to changes in terrain and that sort of thing. So it's less that we're making the skis, do something as much as we're putting in putting them in a position where they do something and then we ride on them.

Tom:

So the last conversation I had with a friend Paul Lorenz, we’re talking about closed chain mechanics versus open chain mechanics . And I was saying to him that my thought is most of good skiing comes from a closed chain mechanics cause they're more efficient because you're not trying, you’re more sort of balancing the mass closed chain. In skiing because you're letting joints move into positions and the muscles are lengthening to control that position as it moves away from neutral.

 

Ron:

Hmm. That's interesting.

 

Tom:

That's why I think so many people struggle with fore and aft skills is because in walking the ground is grippy and creates an easier felt closed chain for the body. Whereas skiing, you have to be used to actually having your feet kind of free underneath you. 

 

Ron:

Right. Yeah. Because you know, if you can, if you think of it as a free body, the mass of your feet and your skis is small compared to your torso, so you can move your feet, you can move your feet relatively easily fore and aft underneath you.

 

Tom:

And if you try and move, move your upper body, like towards say your feet in front of you in order for the upper body to get over the feet, then the feet have to be able to stay still. And if you're predicting this, that's what's going to happen. Right. I'm going to move my rib cage towards my feet. But, but unfortunately what happens is the feet slide. So then you don't get this, your outcome is different to what you think or predict would usually happen on ground, which has a lot more friction.

 

Ron:

Just think, that's why people fall over when they get off the chairlift, the first thing they expect, they expect there's going to be reaction from, from the ground back up, back up the Hill, but there's no friction.

 

Tom:

I also listened to a few clever people that talk about neuroscience and there's one guy saying that the, the main sort of function of our nervous system is prediction. You know, we're always just trying to predict what is going to happen because that makes us feel safe and know what's going to happen. Because obviously unpredictability is not great. So we're always trying to be able to predict things. So back to your Marcel Hirscher thing, he just seems to have pure confidence in predicting  10 meters ahead, that this is where my body's going to be. This is how it going to feel. This is what's going to happen on the snow. And he's totally confident in himself. So his nervous system is probably functioning at a really high level, very calm, but very high level.

 

Ron:

Yeah. How much inclination will be able to support. You know there've been a few races where everybody else made a lot of mistakes. Like last year in Garmisch there was a giant slalom that nobody looked good except for him. And he looked like every turn he knew just where he wanted to be.

 

Tom:

At some level you've got to look beyond the equipment set up of the skis, the technique and look at it from sort of that nervous system level of how confident and trusting are you that everything's going to happen and that you, your thoughts don't take over and go, I don't know if I can do this. This is icy. It's steep here.

 

Ron:

I've talked about a fair amount in the past, around here in the States is what happens to the transition. When you start to reduce your inclination at the end of the turn you're basically falling across your feet, right. You know, when you finish a turn and link it with another turn, there is a period of time in which during you’re toppling from one side of your feet to the other. And you don't have a whole lot of control over how fast that goes. Once you started it, especially once you've literally crossed over your feet. And I talk about the estimation problem.

 

Ron:

And when you're finishing a turn, you have to estimate how much group you're going to get from the snow, how fast you're going to be going, where are you, what you want the shape of that turn to be and how much inclination you're going to need, how much you're going to need to redirect the ski so that when you do land on your skis, after the transition you're in balance and the ski does what you want it to do, it's a very complicated problem to solve. And a lot of what becoming  an advanced to expert skiers about is learning to solve that problem.

 

Tom:

Yeah, that's right. And there's that prediction thing.

 

Ron:

Right. And people who don't have that ability or are unsure of it when you put them on, for instance, a steep slope, that's when they start to step.

 

Tom:

Yeah.

 

Ron:

They're not going to let themselves fall into the turn and then catch themselves with their skis. They want to be stable on that downhill ski and start while they're starting to turn with their other foot.

 

Tom:

So what do you think is the mechanism that first starts that release, that topple from the old turn?

 

Ron:

There are several, one of them is an edge set. If you pivot your skis quickly and just stick them in the snow, your feet slow down, right. And your body gets carried across. We don't do that as much anymore. Although on steep, steep terrain, people still do that. Another thing you can do is you can make the ski tighten up at the end of the turn. You come around to turn. And then at the very bottom, you add severe angulation and it will make the radius of turn that the skis making decrease. If you were in balance before you made the radius decrease, you will now be out of balance and you'll flip fall over to the other side.

 

Tom:

Like a high side, you kind of high side yourself.

 

Ron:

Exactly. That’s how you finish a turn on a bicycle. And another way to do it is to let's say you're imbalanced, you know, carving through a turn. If you just relax your quads and your buttocks muscles and your lower back that effectively disengages your upper body from your feet. Yep. So these are no longer pushing you. Your body's going to go in a straight line and you see this a lot in racing. You see this a lot, especially in slalom, you see it a lot in GS, too. It's not, it's not the only way to start a transition, but it's one way to do it. And there are a couple of others too.

Ron Le Master image

Tom: Are you in a new boot at all this season?

 

Ron:

No,  I ski head boots. I've been in the same pair of boots. I think for maybe three years, I just bought a new pair of shells just because it faded so much and they looked awful. The new one looks, you know, it's got the new colors, but it's the same shell. And I use foam liners. So basically I just kind of move the liners from one shell  to the next once they're set up right. Im a big fan of foam liners for myself. I've got a very low volume foot and even in a 93 millimeter plug boot, you know, I need to take up space. 

 

Tom:

Yeah. Wow. 

 

Ron:

The nice thing about having a foam liner is you don't have to tighten your boots that much because they sit so closely you still have all the response you want because the foam is dense. You know, it doesn't have give to it, but the boot doesn't have to be so tight that you can't articulate your foot a little bit. Yeah. I'm a big fan, but it's not for everybody.Most liners are low pass filters. They suppress high frequencies a lot because the foam is absorbing vibration. You know, that's how the snow talks to you. It's with vibrations that come through your feet.

 

Tom:

That's great. I like what you said, about filters. You dont want to have too many kinds of filters that you have to run that pressure through before you get the sensations from the snow.

 

Ron:

Yeah. What I tell a lot of people was that if you buy a pair of boots that are really comfortable when you first get them and it’s got a big soft liner, it's like listening to music with pillows over your ears, literally you've got this thing that filters out lots of the high frequency and that's where a lot of the information is.

 

Tom:

Yeah. Very true.  Do you know David McPhail?

 

Ron:

You know, I've never met David personally. We have corresponded for probably 20 years, 25 years. And I've seen  his blog a few times. He's an interesting guy.

 

Tom:

He is. I know I've a friend of mine works quite closely with them in Canada and hearing through this friend, just some of his ideas is really interesting because he is very much thinking about that level of things in someone's ski boot.Just right down to the types of materials the baseboard is made of you know, will change the quality of feedback you get through it.

 

Ron:

I know I've talked with world cup athletes who say that they use the difference between their slalom boot  and they’re GS boot is the material the cuff is made out of, because this material works better for GS if it's a little smoother, it's not as noisy or something like that.

 

Tom:

They’re so tuned in to what they’re sensing. 

 

Ron:

They're skiing on a very hard surface. That creates a lot of vibration. Yeah. These guys are in another world.

 

Tom:

Hey, if you had one thing, one piece of advice to give to the ski instructors and coaches of the world, what would it be?

 

Ron:

I'd say the most important thing is that people don't learn from listening. They learn by doing. If you can give them an exercise for a task or something that they will have to do in order to accomplish it.

 

Tom:

Great. Really good point.

 

Ron:

If you tell them, tell somebody I want you to just make hop turns as fast as you can between here and that spot down there, just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and you do that over and over and over and get, get it to where it goes faster and faster and faster. They will learn to turn the skis with their feet and their legs and keep their upper bodies quiet. And eventually their hands will stop moving. You know, you can tell people to do all that kind of stuff, but if you give them something where the task teaches them, how to do it, or have them ski and terrain skiing and all kinds of terrain and all kinds of snow, not all perfectly groomed set up snow all the time get them out to teach people how to ski.

 

Ron:

Really, the more you can construct an experience for the skier, it will teach them how to ski the more successful you'll be. And I guess the one other thing I would say is you want to give people something to go away with, that they can use to tell how well they're doing. So in other words, if you get them to feel something, you can get them to feel the ski doing a particular thing. They get it. Oh, I felt that. So they can go off and they can monitor their own skiing and they can seek that feeling. 

 

Tom:

They need some measure of success. Right. They need to know that you feel this or this, this outcome happens. You're successful. So measure it by that.

 

Tom:

And then Ron, have you got any plans to write or publish any more books?

 

Ron:

I don't have any plans to write anymore paper books. 

 

Tom:

How about with me?

 

Ron:

With you? You know, paper publishing on paper, not sure if i'm willing to put in the time to do that again, not as, certainly not anything book length, you know, magazines stuff. I'm trying to think about what I can do with with video technology and animation to convey things that are hard for people to understand.

 

Tom:

Yeah. Sounds fantastic.

 

Ron:

Yeah. Who knows if it will or not,

 

Tom:

All right. Well, I'd better let you go. And thanks very much again, Ron, and yeah. Look forward to maybe meeting you in person one day and, and writing that book.

 

Ron:

Okay. Got it. If you've got an idea, send it to me.

 

Tom:

It’s something I'd like to do. It’s hard to get all your ideas down in one place and you know, you kind of need also a bit of a sounding board to keep the crazy stuff, you know, contained. So yeah, you might, you might get an email from me one day,

 

Ron:

You know my recommendation is just don't worry about how it looks. Just get it all out there and then, you know, chop it up and move it around and try and put it into a form. The  only way to get it done is to start. And for me personally the most important thing, the hardest, and maybe I think the critical thing is to figure out how to organize it all so that, you know, it's got some structure that, that hangs together and can make some sense, you know, 200 pages of stream of consciousness doesn't work.

 

Tom:

Yes. It's got to have a bit of a process, a logical progression. Group together. Fantastic. Thanks very much. Ron, look forward to catching up one day. Take care. Bye